Harmful Traditional Practices with Naveen Suresh and Samantha Spence – Witch Hunt

This episode features a comprehensive discussion on superstitions and their impact on child rights in India, specifically focusing on the harmful ritual of Pillai Thookkam. The guests, Naveen Suresh, a PhD researcher on anti-superstition law in India, and Dr. Samantha Spence, an expert in human rights law, dive into the legal, cultural, and psychological aspects of superstitions and their enforcement. Naveen shares unsettling details about Pillai Thookkam, a ritual involving putting babies at risk without safety measures, to highlight the severe neglect of child rights under the guise of tradition. Both guests discuss the complexities of applying existing laws against such practices, emphasizing the importance of scientific temper, education, and mental health awareness. The episode concludes with insights into how media and education can play pivotal roles in combating superstitions and fostering a rational and empathetic societal outlook towards child welfare. Street Play on Witch Hunting by I-CARD Film: Testimony of Ana End Witch Hunts AVARNAN (The Colorless People) | SHORT FILM | NAVEEN SURESH Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices Grassroots organizations working with The International Network International Alliance to End Witch Hunts — Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/witchhunt/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/witchhunt/support

Show Notes

This episode features a comprehensive discussion on superstitions and their impact on child rights in India, specifically focusing on the harmful ritual of Pillai Thookkam. The guests, Naveen Suresh, a PhD researcher on anti-superstition law in India, and Dr. Samantha Spence, an expert in human rights law, dive into the legal, cultural, and psychological aspects of superstitions and their enforcement. Naveen shares unsettling details about Pillai Thookkam, a ritual involving putting babies at risk without safety measures, to highlight the severe neglect of child rights under the guise of tradition. Both guests discuss the complexities of applying existing laws against such practices, emphasizing the importance of scientific temper, education, and mental health awareness. The episode concludes with insights into how media and education can play pivotal roles in combating superstitions and fostering a rational and empathetic societal outlook towards child welfare.

⁠Street Play on Witch Hunting by I-CARD⁠

⁠Film: Testimony of Ana⁠

⁠End Witch Hunts⁠

⁠AVARNAN (The Colorless People) | SHORT FILM | NAVEEN SURESH⁠

⁠Why Witch Hunts are not just a Dark Chapter from the Past⁠

⁠The International Network against Accusations of Witchcraft and Associated Harmful Practices⁠

⁠Grassroots organizations working with The International Network⁠

⁠International Alliance to End Witch Hunts⁠

Transcript

Sarah Jack: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Witch Hunt, the show where we explore the intersection of supernatural belief, law, and human rights. I'm your host, Sarah Jack. 
Josh Hutchinson: And I'm Josh Hutchinson. Today, we introduce a topic that's as complex as it is controversial. Pillai Thookkam, a ritual from Southern India that's been practiced for centuries, but poses serious questions about child safety and cultural preservation.
Sarah Jack: That's right, Josh. Pillai Thookkam involves suspending infants from heights as part of a religious festival, believed by many to bring blessing and good health. However, the risks involved have sparked a significant debate about the welfare of the children participating in this tradition. 
Josh Hutchinson: And to help us unpack this, we have two very special guests.
Josh Hutchinson: Joining us is Naveen Suresh, a researcher from Kerala, who's currently doing his PhD focusing on anti superstition laws. Naveen has spent years documenting and studying the impacts of such rituals on the community and the children. 
Sarah Jack: We also have Dr. Samantha Spence [00:01:00] with us, a human rights advocate from the UK who brings a global perspective on how similar practices are viewed and regulated around the world.
Sarah Jack: She's worked extensively on issues related to spiritual abuse and the intersection of cultural practices and child protection laws. 
Josh Hutchinson: In today's episode, we'll explore the origins of Pillai Thookkam, discuss its current practice, and dive into the broader implications of maintaining such traditions in modern society. We'll examine the challenges of protecting children while respecting cultural heritage and the roles that education, legislation, and community engagement play in shaping the future of these practices. 
Sarah Jack: We encourage you to join the conversation. Share your thoughts, experiences, or questions with us on social media or via email. We're here to foster a thoughtful dialogue on these important issues. 
Josh Hutchinson: So, stay with us as we navigate the delicate balance between cultural rituals and child safety, right here on Witch Hunt. 
Sarah Jack: Let's get [00:02:00] started.
Sarah Jack: Hi, Josh. 
Josh Hutchinson: Hi, Sarah. 
Sarah Jack: Thanks for coming today, Sam and Naveen. We're so happy to get to talk to you about this important stuff. 
Samantha Spence: Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, Josh. Back again. 
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you. It's a pleasure to meet you, Naveen. 
Naveen Suresh: It's a pleasure to meet you, Josh.
Sarah Jack: Naveen, please introduce yourself and tell us about your background. 
Naveen Suresh: Okay. Um, I'm Naveen. Uh, I'm from Kerala, a state in India. So I'm currently, uh, uh, doing my research, PhD research, uh, on anti superstitious law at Central University of Kerala. So I've done my LLB in Government Law College, uh, Trivandrum, and my PG in Central University itself.
Naveen Suresh: So, um, currently my research [00:03:00] area is anti superstitious law, taken the subject because I felt that it is highly relevant to talk about anti superstitious law and it's definitely a gray area, uh, in the Indian legal system. 
Naveen Suresh: So, uh, I'm also like so many passions and that passions define me, um, teaching is a passion. Filmmaking is a passion. Uh, theater, drama, all are passion, passions that define me and I also, uh, work as a sexuality educator. So we have an NGO which promotes comprehensive sexuality education. So, all these passions define who I am.
Josh Hutchinson: Welcome back, Sam. Could you reintroduce yourself briefly? 
Samantha Spence: Um, I can, yes. So, I am officially Dr. Samantha Spence, but unofficially, I much prefer Sam. I am the course director for postgraduate law. I am the deputy chair of the National Working Group in the UK on spiritual abuse and possession. [00:04:00] And I am a co director of the Violence Against Women and Girls Hub at the university in the UK as well.
Josh Hutchinson: Can you explain what Pillai Thookkam is and why you're researching it? 
Naveen Suresh: Sure. Pillai Thookkam is definitely a part of my research. I've done a paper on Pillai Thookkam, uh, it's actually, uh, rituals, which is actually, uh, in an inhuman practice, which is violating child rights.
Naveen Suresh: It happens at Kollemcode. Uh, it's in Kanyakumari, it's a border, uh, between Tamil Nadu and Kerala. So it's like halfway in Kerala, halfway in Tamil Nadu. So the people are also like half Tamil and half Kerala. So, uh, there exists a ritual which is conducted as part of the festival. It's called Kollemcode Thookkam. Okay, that's what it's generally called.
Naveen Suresh: And one of the rituals among it is Pillai Thookkam. So, in pillai Thookkam, what they actually do is that, uh, babies who are like, uh, [00:05:00] less than one year old. Okay. They're not even one year old. They will be like given in the hands of a human being. And that person will be tied to a pole and it will be a very long pole.
Naveen Suresh: And this pole will be like, um, like it will be took to a really long height. It's about like 40 meters. It will be taken that much high. And then it will be like tied to a vehicle. That's a vehicle. So people will be pulling this vehicle and it should be pulled around the temple for one round completely. So this ritual happens, um, like it starts from, uh, today morning and it will be like continuously done for one whole day.
Naveen Suresh: So the thing is that like, uh, there are no safety precautions at all. It's a baby being taken to this much height and they have zero safety precautions, even an amusement park has safety precautions, but this ritual, it doesn't have any safety precautions at all. 
Naveen Suresh: And the babies, like, I could still hear them crying. Okay. So, uh, instead of like, uh, doing it theoretically, I practically went there, took [00:06:00] photographs and videos of the ritual. So I, uh, when I was there, I could literally hear the babies crying. Okay. There was the noise of the people. There was a noise of the trumpets. It was completely a festive mood. But amidst all those noise, I could still hear the babies crying. Okay. 
Naveen Suresh: And the parents, I was like, wondered, it was causing a traumatizing experience for me, hearing the babies cry. But I was looking at the parents and they were chanting some mantras or slogans as a part of the festival and it was such an inhuman practice and nobody is concerned. Everybody is promoting it and even the media, they are live telecasting it.
Naveen Suresh: Everybody is involved in it and it's been there. Even though India is a party to many child rights conventions, all these practices violating the child rights are still going on. 
Sarah Jack: So if you peel back the celebration and just look at what the child's experiencing, it's completely unsafe, unnourishing, [00:07:00] un Nurturing and, um, ex an extensive period of time and, uh, strenuous on them, it sounds.
Naveen Suresh: Yes, definitely. It's definitely causing a mental trauma to them because I could see them like, uh, after the ritual is being performed when the babies are with their parents, and then the ritual is being conducted again in front of them, and when the rhythm them or the vehicle approaching them, they'll immediately start crying.
Naveen Suresh: So that is causing a huge amount of mental trauma to them, and being lifted to this much height by, by a stranger, imagine that if what, uh, if some health issues happen to that person. Okay. Suppose he's having, uh, BP radiation, what will happen to the child? It's completely unsafe. Okay. So this is Pillai Thookkam and, um, I was like worried what will happen to the child if something happens, but nobody else was worried. Everybody was supporting it.
Naveen Suresh: Months later, [00:08:00] okay, months later, I published this paper, uh, a similar ritual. It is called Garudan Thookkam. It happened in another part of Kerala, and a baby was injured as a part of this ritual. Okay. It's a similar ritual, but the baby was injured this time. And the most, uh, like, horrifying or haunting part was that the way society responded to that.
Naveen Suresh: Okay. I really thought that even after a baby getting injured, they will try to stop this practice. Uh, they were like, um, like interference from the part of the child rights commission, the police, everybody interfered. But what really happened is that they charged a negligence offence against the person holding the baby.
Naveen Suresh: That's the only legal action taken against this. And no actions were taken against the people who actually conducted the ritual. So what happened is that, uh, the Child Rights Commission, everybody came in and they decided that next time when they're conducting this ritual, they will do it with safety precautions.
Naveen Suresh: That's the only thing that happened even after a baby was injured. [00:09:00] So it's really haunting and horrifying.
Josh Hutchinson: And the baby fell? 
Naveen Suresh: Yes. 
Josh Hutchinson: And how high is it that they go up again? 
Naveen Suresh: Um, it's different at different places. It's depending on the length of the pole. So this time the baby, uh, like it got some injuries, but, uh, no big harm was done to it, but still it occurred some injuries. So it's different at different places.
Naveen Suresh: Some places, uh, even the method is different. Okay. In some places, the man will be like held to the pole using a rope pulley. In some places they actually use these sharp objects pierced into the body also. So it's completely different at different places. 
Sarah Jack: What, what, um, child protections that are in place should be covering this?
Naveen Suresh: See, we, uh, like India is a country that should, uh, value child rights protection. See, we are part of [00:10:00] all the international conventions regarding child rights. And we have, like, legal systems, so many laws protecting the rights of the child. But the problem in India is that we have legislations. We have enough legislations to combat all these things.
Naveen Suresh: But the problem is that whenever it comes into the arena of religion, everything becomes extinct. No law is good enough to touch the arena of religion. Even judiciary refines themselves from touching the area of religion. That's a major issue here. And that's the relevance of an anti superstitious law, which should deal specifically on these practices.
Sarah Jack: 
Naveen Suresh: So in India, like, uh, suppose if I'm getting proper education from schools I will be, like, learning about the Indian Constitution by 10th standard, maybe. I'll be learning in detail about the Indian Constitution by reaching 10th standard. 
Naveen Suresh: But right from my birth, I will be, uh, like, exposed to the world of religion. Right from the [00:11:00] birth. Okay. So I'll be like, um, forced to, we don't have the like, right to choose my religion, actually. Whatever the religion of the parents, they will force it on us. And, uh, in most of the religions, like, it will be like taught from a childhood itself, that it will be a great sin if you don't follow the religious procedures, religious rituals.
Naveen Suresh: So when I am exposed or trained to be a religious individual, right from childhood itself, it is very difficult to talk about scientific temper in India. Scientific temper is there in the constitution. But whether this word actually and practically exist in India, it's a very difficult thing. Scientific temper is something that we really lack.
Naveen Suresh: The society lacks it completely and we follow something like blind religious beliefs can be easily seen everywhere. So no matter how much education a person acquires, it doesn't help him to see through religion, okay? That veil will be existing always. [00:12:00] So education system is also becoming, uh, ineffective in dealing such issues.
Naveen Suresh: So where should we start? That's a question. Education can't provide scientific temper, parents can't provide it, uh, the state is not able to provide or promote scientific temper, so how are we supposed to earn it? A question.
Samantha Spence: May I pick up on something that Naveen's just said there, for international as well? It's that it's not always about the absence of laws, sometimes there's too many laws. It's about the lack of clarity in the laws, how they're applicable to these practices, and whether they are actually enforced. which is usually the main one, they're not enforced.
Samantha Spence: So there are anti superstition laws in India, and child protection laws, and you have international treaties, so the Convention on the Rights of the Child. But what also happens is these laws don't really interconnect [00:13:00] with each other, and back each other up, and we see many states, India is definitely one that signs up to conve conventions like CEDAW, on women's convention, um, but there's no, um, real teeth in these conventions to apply that international force, if that makes sense.
Samantha Spence: It goes back to political will. And, and, and if states don't want to, um, play the game as such, then they won't, because there's no international police force. So, I think there's a lack of clarity internationally. Yeah, we've signed up to this. Um So what, what does it do? And, and that's always the problem.
Samantha Spence: And I think I've said this before, it's this top down, bottom up approach that we're working internationally to raise awareness, but we need to educate and raise awareness as well, like Naveen said, in the societies, um, that we're talking about here and try and get that through to permeate through society.
Samantha Spence: But it's [00:14:00] very, very complicated and very complex in, in that arena on the ground. And I think a lot of that as well is fear, because as has been said, people don't want to discuss this. It's, it's very political in India at the minute. So it, it, it's You're on, um, do you know what I mean? Dangerous ground. Um, but all we can do is keep talking about this, um, and keep raising the awareness.
Samantha Spence: Um, and like I said, the laws are sometimes, more often than not, in place. They're just not working, not enforced, and we need to create awareness of how we do that. But that has to come through the system, from the lawyers to the judiciary. And again, you've got major corruption there and fear, so difficult.
Sarah Jack: There's a, there's a lot of barriers here. So with your research, you're pointing out [00:15:00] essentially how this ritual may be harmful to a child, but then you also have to get those conversations and recognition happening so that change can happen for these kids. 
Samantha Spence: But you've got to want change, as well. And I think that's the other issue is that some of these things are so deeply entrenched that actually change isn't wanted by everyone.
Samantha Spence: So how do you, how do you tackle that? I mean, that's the same with the witchcraft elements and other harmful practices. If, if the parents see this as something that they should do, and it's a generational issue, then that's going to continue.
Naveen Suresh: Also, the problem is that, like, uh, it's an irony, actually, like, uh, they are doing this inhuman practice, which is completely unsafe. The, like, myth behind it is that they are doing [00:16:00] this for the child to have a better health. Okay. So the reason why they're performing this ritual is to ensure that the child will have a better health.
Naveen Suresh: And do we really need to do something unsafe to provide better health for the child? I definitely don't think that it is going to provide any form of better health to a child other than the mental trauma.
Josh Hutchinson: And there are anti superstition laws in place. Um, should those laws be applied to this and to other harmful traditional practices? 
Naveen Suresh: Okay. Two elements there are like, yes. Sam, I, no, 
Samantha Spence: I was gonna say there's two elements there. And this was raised recently when I was in carer. There's anti-superstition laws, and there's witchcraft laws. And they always get lumped together, but actually they're different. So the witchcraft laws [00:17:00] specifically aimed at this as a harmful practice. Anti-superstition laws are more broader. Um, how you then rectify that within a pluralistic place like India, again, is problematic. Um, and whether it can be incorporated in, which I'll pass over to Naveen now.
Naveen Suresh: So there are like eight states in India, uh, having anti superstitious state legislations. But are they really anti superstitious legislations is a question that we should raise. Okay. Most of them, as Sam said, are witchcraft laws, witchcraft, magic remedies, black magic acts. So these are the legislations.
Naveen Suresh: So first of all, we lack a national legislation which could unify all these legislations. So there is absence of a national legislation. And the second question is whether these state laws are effective. Okay. Uh, one identical or Uh, one essential thing that we should discuss is that, like, uh, [00:18:00] it's about describing or defining what the concept of superstition is. It's definitely not an easy job, okay? 
Naveen Suresh: Uh, Kerala, Kerala might be having different superstitions. Other states will be having different superstitions. So how to, like, narrow down what are superstitious practices and what are not superstitious practices? 
Naveen Suresh: The problem is that if you suppose, uh, if you just inculcate the concept of scientific temper, most of the religious practices should be banned. Okay. That's a problem. All these religious practices are lacking scientific temper. So we can't like measure it with the scale of scientific temper completely. So how should, how will we define what is a superstitious practice and what is not? So that requires a huge amount of study, identifying and recognizing the practices.
Naveen Suresh: So some of the practices, what happens is that, For example, there was a practice called Thalaikoothal, which exists in Tamil Nadu. There are studies saying [00:19:00] that Thalaikoothal exists as a part of a cultural ritual. So it speaks about killing the elderly people. They will just, like, the family will be trying to kill the elderly people. That is Thalaikoothal. 
Naveen Suresh: So if you research about Thalaikoothal, uh, Nobody acknowledges the existence of Thalaikoothal. They're saying that it doesn't exist. Okay, but it is still happening. There are interviews and documentaries of people who actually perform these rituals. Uh, they are like, uh, persons who actually conduct these rituals.
Naveen Suresh: Uh, so, our thing is that whenever the state is trying to interfere, Normally it doesn't interfere, but if the state, uh, tries to interfere, the society immediately closes the doors and says that it doesn't exist. So it is very difficult to, uh, make them recognize that. Okay, uh, we, if you take the case of Pillai Thookkam, the parents are performing it. So it's not something performed by a stranger, the parents are [00:20:00] forcing their own children to do it. So if a parent can't see a harm is being caused to the child, who else can? It's very difficult to convince them that this is a superstitious practice and it should be banned. 
Naveen Suresh: And in a state like, uh, India, uh, in a country like India, uh, where democracy rules, it is very difficult for the political parties to interfere into matters of religion. So actually, legislature is hesitant to interfere in matters of religion. Executive is hesitant. Judiciary is hesitant. So everybody has a fear, like, it is a matter of religion. Because religion has an unquestionable authority in our state. Nobody can question religion. So, since that unquestionable authority exists there, it is very difficult to bring in a legislation which could actually prohibit this inhuman practices. 
Josh Hutchinson: You've mentioned witchcraft very briefly in this episode, but we've spoken on it [00:21:00] before on other episodes. What are some common myths related to witchcraft and mental health that are prevalent and what is their origin? 
Samantha Spence: Oh, that's for me, isn't it? Um, the, um, the link with mental health and witchcraft is that there is.
Samantha Spence: Um, fear and misunderstanding about what mental health is. So it's the unknown and anything that's the unknown becomes something to be scared of. And this leads to stigma, discrimination, violence, and the witchcraft. So mental illness as a sign of witchcraft is one of the myths. So the belief that people are possessed by evil spirits, or they have these supernatural abilities and that makes them as witches, and that's traced back through, through generations, through history, because again, there was a lack of understanding of what caused these issues [00:22:00] there, um, and this is all across the world as well. 
Samantha Spence: Um, there's also, if we turn that around, the myth that witchcraft itself can then cause mental illness, so we have this, it could be a curse, or because you've done something, you've engaged in witchcraft, that has actually brought on the mental health.
Samantha Spence: And then, you know, on top of that, you have the, the actual cure for mental health lies in witchcraft, so the belief that actually these witchcraft or spiritual remedies can cure the mental health. So it's all very interlinked, but it comes back to the fear and misunderstanding and the stigma of, of, of mental illness.
Samantha Spence: That's, that's really what propels it all there. But it's, it's very complex in the way that it's used because it's used in three different ways there. Um, and they all contradict each other in a way. So yeah. And also the lack of medical treatment, the lack of, um, medical access in communities means that they go to traditional [00:23:00] healers and then you've got this propagation there, um, that continues for, um, usually money. Um, and that, that, that is an issue. So. Yeah.
Sarah Jack: So how do, how does the mental health professional community address this for individuals and address this for families and communities? 
Samantha Spence: Again, it's education. I think if you explain what something is and, um, how it's caused and, and the actual medical science, the science behind this, then you are trying, and I'm not saying that this works because you can have the science there and people will still not believe it, but this promotion of mental health literacy.
Samantha Spence: What is mental health? How do we, um, describe it in a culturally sensitive way [00:24:00] as well? And how do we offer evidence based care and not this kind of traditional care or witchcraft care? Understanding that mental health is not linked to superstition. It's not linked to witchcraft. It's not linked to the devil. It's actually a disorder, a health, as, as a physical one would be, is, is something that needs to be, get out there. 
Samantha Spence: And it's for communities to work together and with mental health practitioners to try and dismantle these harmful stereotypes that perpetuate. So again, you've got that battle there, um, and make sure that mental health is actually understood firstly, and it's treated with compassion, um, as opposed to being stigmatized.
Sarah Jack: Is there a link to the witchcraft myths, mental health misunderstandings to these gruesome crimes that are occurring in [00:25:00] some communities? 
Samantha Spence: Um, yeah, there's always been the, the link of there is, is mental health. A lot of the time. So if I talk about the UK, for example, the cases in the UK, um, of Kristy Bamu, and he was 15 year old boy and he wet the bed, and they believed that he had the devil inside him.
Samantha Spence: So, um, yeah, And it's this thing that he was beaten to death in a brutal way. And the problem is there is that once you start to supernaturalize it, it, it removes the human being. And I've seen many, uh, a video, unfortunately, that, um, children and women have been beaten because they can't feel it because they're possessed.
Samantha Spence: And that's, that's the danger there, that people actually dehumanize the, the person, um, and the harm becomes aimed at this spirit that, well, it's not there. So it, yeah, it, it's, it's massive, but it's fear. And, and going back to what Giresh [00:26:00] said, as well, it's, it's all linked religion, superstition is because it, it all runs off fear.
Samantha Spence: That's how it works. Fear of the unknown, fear of, of what's gonna happen. Fear of society, fear of rejection, fear of stigma, all there. And it's clever, it's very, very clever. Um, and it's also dangerous, but how you challenge that, you, you, you challenging the, the systems that want to maintain the status quo because it suits them, especially in India.
Samantha Spence: So how do you challenge that? And, and the ones that do challenge it again, are putting yourself up there for um, why are you putting yourself out there to, um, what's the word, be attacked, I suppose?
Naveen Suresh: I'm just adding on to what Sam just said. Be it an educational institution, be it a working place, the mental health of a person should be given first priority. But unfortunately, mental health has been [00:27:00] given zero importance in our entire system. See, uh, for example, if you are like, uh, in an educational institution, the children are asked to follow strict discipline.
Naveen Suresh: Okay. They have been given strict treatment. They have been, like, uh, not to talk, not to run, not to do anything at all. So they are being silenced, okay. Their voices are being silenced. They are prohibited from thinking critically. And they will be like pressurized with too much academic work, and whether these academic works are effective is another question.
Naveen Suresh: Uh, the sec the major concern is that, like, these pressure that is being put on them is causing serious mental harm to them. And also, like, we consider, like, arts and sports as extracurricular activities. That should not be. It should be part of the curriculum. These are all connected, okay, arts, sports, academics. It should be connected completely, so it should not be considered something extracurricular. 
Naveen Suresh: So when all these [00:28:00] factors which should positively contribute to the mental health of a person are absent. For example, if you take the case of a working place, We say that, okay, uh, too much work exploitation is there. So suppose we are being, um, like, uh, forced to work for extra hours, we are forced to work or forced to do something that we are not capable of doing it. See, different person, different individuals are different, right? But everybody's forced to do the same thing, be it in an education system, be it in a working place. 
Naveen Suresh: Everybody's being forced to do the same thing. So all these factors are negatively affecting the mental health of a person. So, when these serious mental health issues happens to the people, they are looking out for methods to ventilate themselves. Sadly, everybody can't afford the help of proper mental health professionals.
Naveen Suresh: We also have, see, uh, here there are people who still doesn't recognize the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. People doesn't know. [00:29:00] If somebody visits a psychologist, uh, we have a stigma that, okay, that person is having some serious mental health issues. So that stigma exists within the society.
Naveen Suresh: So, when all these stigmas are existing, and when all these mental health problems are there, the only form or the only solution available to the common man is go to a religious place and worship. That is the only form of ventilation, affordable form of ventilation available to them. And that makes them, uh, like, more ardent believer of religion and that gives that unquestionable authority.
Naveen Suresh: So mental health is a serious problem and that should be dealt with in a serious manner. 
Josh Hutchinson: So if I was wondering if a public program were offered to provide psychiatric services, um, to individuals as part of their health care, [00:30:00] um, would that help to alleviate the problems of going to traditional healers, uh, for treatment?
Naveen Suresh: Obviously, see the method to combat this problem actually. Supposed if I'm saying that I'm an atheist, I'm against religion, I will get an instant repulsion from all these believers, okay? They won't listen to whatever I preach, okay? They'll immediately say, oh, that person is an atheist, oh, that person is against religion, so we should not listen to that person.
Naveen Suresh: So the only forum to, uh, get inside that sphere and actually combat that problem is that we cannot go directly against religion. We cannot combat, we cannot go to a, uh, hand in hand combat with religion. That's not the way. But there is another method which is put forward by, uh, Dr. Narendra Dabholkar. Uh, he's like the person who had led the anti-superstitious movement in India, but [00:31:00] was unfortunately murdered for the work that he had done.
Naveen Suresh: What he put forward is that Narendra Dabholkar said that this is not a fight against religion. This is just an attempt to inculcate scientific temper in them. Okay, so if you try to inculcate scientific temper, if you try to provide effective alternate means like proper psychologist's help, okay, if you provide them with that alternative, they will slowly distance themselves from religion. That's what I see. Okay. 
Naveen Suresh: See, I was brought in a religious family, and I have followed all these religious practices since childhood. But what made me distant to religion is the realization of the inhuman practices that was happening and my exposure to scientific temper. That helped me realize it. Okay. So we should develop the ability of critical thinking from childhood itself.
Naveen Suresh: Nobody's beyond question, be it God, be it political party, nobody is [00:32:00] unquestionable. We should be taught to question everything. And if we are taught from childhood to question things, then, slowly, these practices might recede back, and that's what I think about them. 
Sarah Jack: Yeah, we need to be questioning how we're treating people. I mean, one on one, how groups are treating other groups. Um, you have, you know, used the word inhuman several times today, and that's really impactful, because any behavior that is reducing somebody to an inhuman status isn't okay. That has to be recognized by people. 
Naveen Suresh: Exactly. 
Samantha Spence: Yeah, I'll just, um, I agree with what Naveen's just said completely, and you can't fight against the religious movement as such, you have to work together with the religious movement to try and improve the situation there, which [00:33:00] is problematic. However, it is possible.
Samantha Spence: And, and, like I say, this critical thinking is, is so important to ask the questions, but why? Why is it that? Who said? Can you tell me? From a young age, because indoctrination happens at a young age, and if you introduce critical thinking at a young age, you then start to counteract the other one, and, and to ask these questions, but unfortunately, in some societies, it's so regressive, and you are in an environment where you are unable to ask those questions, and that raised its own problems. 
Sarah Jack: Does the rationalist movement have a way of working with religious society?
Naveen Suresh: Unfortunately, that is absent. So, what happens in India mostly is that, like, uh, if somebody, like, overcomes the barrier of religion, or somebody lifts the veil of religion, that person immediately becomes an atheist, okay? You'll be suddenly, uh, talking [00:34:00] against religion completely. So this results in a tussle of war between atheists and religious groups, and nobody wins.
Naveen Suresh: That's what happens. So it's not like we can, we should understand the situation. There is no perfect solution which is applicable everywhere. We should definitely understand that a solution which is applicable in one state will not be the solution that will be applicable in another state. So we should understand what the scenario is, what the problem is.
Naveen Suresh: We should, we should, we should not just invalidate the religious people. Okay, they are religious people, so we should just invalidate them. No, that's not the way to do it. We should identify why they are following it blindly. Why we should identify the reasons for this. So they are also humans. So there will be humane reasons that force them to do that.
Naveen Suresh: So identifying the reasons and working on the grassroots level, just for example, uh, just like Josh remarked earlier, provide them with proper mental health measures. Okay, if they [00:35:00] talk to a proper psychologist, okay, if the psychologist is able to give them a better ventilation method, then they won't be, it is not necessary for them to visit a temple.
Naveen Suresh: They are identifying or they are realizing that there is another effective alternative. So provide them help. It's not, we should have empathy towards them, too. So without empathy, no rationalist movement won't work. That's what I would think. 
Samantha Spence: Yeah, and also on the back of that is to educate about, it's not about the belief, it's about the harm that comes from that belief.
Samantha Spence: So people have freedom of belief, you believe whatever you want to, that's absolutely fine, but what that doesn't give you the right to do is to harm another human being. And that's basically where we are there. Um, everybody will have different beliefs, a spectrum of beliefs, again, absolutely fine, but you've got to, you can't cross that line.
Samantha Spence: And many of these practices do cross that line within the boundaries of, "oh, well, [00:36:00] this is, it's cultural, it's religious." And that's when it's not acceptable.
Naveen Suresh: There is this problem, uh, Sam had, uh, remarked about child rights practices and parents, involvement of parents. So, uh, like, while combating all these inhuman practices, it can be done in a step by step manner. For example, if an adult is performing a ritual, okay, which is causing harm to his health, it's very difficult for the law to interfere in it and say that you can't do it. It's very difficult because it falls under his consent. He is doing it voluntarily. 
Naveen Suresh: But in the case of a child, you can't do that. The child is not in a position to give consent. So it's the parents who are asking the child to do that. The Child Rights Convention clearly states that it is not a concept of parental ownership, but the concept of parental responsibility. So the parents are supposed to do all these acts in the best interest of the child. [00:37:00] It's not what the parents think it is a best interest. It is what that should be in actually the best interest of the child. Okay. It's not that the parents could decide everything for them. If the parents think that this is best, no, that's not the way.
Naveen Suresh: We should see it from the perspective of the child also. We should be able to, uh, uh, analyze the problems from the arena of child rights, too. If we are able to see, first of all, parenting should be taught. I personally feel that parenting should be taught. Okay. In India, anybody can become a parent at any age. It's very easy. If you're an adult person, you can easily become a parent. No, it's not something that anybody can be a parent or it's not something that anybody can do. Parenting is a serious task, and it should be properly taught to them. Okay. Then they'll identify the importance of parental responsibility, and I, I really hope that then they will not allow their child in such unsafe [00:38:00] places.
Josh Hutchinson: What role do media and entertainment play in perpetuating stereotypes and misunderstandings about mental health across different cultures?
Naveen Suresh: So, um, in Kerala, like, caste system existed, and slavery existed, all those inhuman practices existed in Kerala. So, we have overcome all these practices, mostly through art movements. Revolution happened in Kerala through art. Okay. 
Naveen Suresh: Art is the best means to get to the common man, uh, and we can, like, a cinema or a drama can speak volumes, it can easily communicate to them.
Naveen Suresh: Suppose, another problem is that, if we go to the general public and, uh, talk about scientific temper or theories or scientific principal, they won't be able to understand it. Okay, it should be given to them in a medium [00:39:00] which they find it amusing, which they find it interesting. So media plays an important role.
Naveen Suresh: And that is the exact reason why, uh, see, I, I told in the beginning that, uh, my passion is filmmaking. So everything is connected. My research, filmmaking, everything is actually connected. So that's the reason why my first, uh, short film, uh, it's titled as Avarnan. That means the colorless person. 
Naveen Suresh: So it was, talking about normalizing, uh, discrimination, the problem is that, uh, in our society, discrimination is normalized. Be it gender discrimination, be it caste discrimination, all these discriminations are done as something normal. "Here, it is done this way." That is the, uh, famous dialogue that we used to say, okay. "In India, it is done this way only."
Naveen Suresh: So that should not be done. Okay. That's not, that should not be done in that way. Because discrimination, be it in any [00:40:00] form, that cannot be treated as something normal. It is completely abnormal. So that was the message that I tried to convey with my film. So, uh, if we are able to make good films, good, um, skits, street plays, all these can help us communicate all these principles effectively to the people.
Sarah Jack: Are you able to develop a curriculum into your film? 
Naveen Suresh: To, of course, like, um.
Naveen Suresh: All these should be connected. See, uh, instead of like, um, writing assignments in lots and lots of paper, like, and giving traditional lectures to the students, um, like they should be given opportunities to utilize all these mediums to express what they want to, uh, like, um, actually state the, uh, uh, to express what they actually want to state to the public. Okay.
Naveen Suresh: It should be, uh, they should be given opportunities actually. So with [00:41:00] my film, I was able to talk to many people. Many people after like listening to it, they have talked to me about like, um, all these problems they have faced in their life, it was relatable to them. So the advantage of media is that it, uh, it makes a connection with the audience, and this relatability factor actually works.
Naveen Suresh: So, uh, teaching using media, um, allowing them to create such content, all these will definitely help them. So it should be part of the curriculum. It should be part of all these rationalist movements, which are trying to, like, wipe off the menace of superstitions.
Josh Hutchinson: Thank you so much. That was wonderful.
Sarah Jack: Thank you so much. It, it's been a real honor to have this conversation with you today. 
Gireesh Kumar J: End Witch Hunts started [00:42:00] to track past and present legal cases in the United States where the vulnerable are victims of harmful practices because they are believed to be possessed by an evil spirit. Over the course of three months, we have documented 50 cases, three of which are getting set to go to trial.
Mary Louise Bingham: One of those cases is that of three year old Arely Naomi Proctor, whose mother and uncle thought she was possessed because Arely was screaming during the night. Instead of seeking medical attention, her mother and uncle brought her to a local church where her grandfather was the pastor, and the three performed an exorcism, which ultimately led to Arely's death.
Mary Louise Bingham: The three have pleaded not guilty in Santa Clara County, California. The judge will make the decision whether or not this case will go to trial on May 13th. We will keep our audience posted.
Sarah Jack: [00:43:00] Welcome to an important update from End Witch Hunts. Today we're rolling out a new initiative tracking spiritual and ritual abuse, SARA, in the United States. Essentially, we're starting a project to keep track of these abuses, because, surprisingly, there's currently no central system for doing so. Our aim is to gather data and raise awareness by sharing the stories of those affected.
Sarah Jack: What does this have to do with witch hunts? When people are believed to be possessed, accusations of witchcraft can arise against the supposedly possessed or those accused of causing the possession. This often results in spiritual and ritual abuse, including harsh exorcisms and other harmful rituals.
Sarah Jack: Now let's clarify what SARA means in this project. It's not tied to any one religion. Instead, It covers any harmful rituals practiced within any faith that hurt vulnerable individuals. Our project focuses solely on collecting data and spreading awareness. We're not offering legal aid or direct victim support.
Sarah Jack: The idea for this project [00:44:00] came about during an expert workshop where we learned about the prevalence of SARA in the UK and realized the urgent need for similar data in the U. S. Right now, we rely on media reports to identify potential cases, which helps us understand the extent and nature of these abuses.
Sarah Jack: In the U. S., SARA isn't just about well meaning traditions that inadvertently harm people. 
Sarah Jack: It also involves controlling or coercive rituals where abusers misuse their power to manipulate and harm victims, often under the guise of socially respected spirituality or culture. These behaviors can range from isolating victims to exploiting their vulnerabilities and even conducting unsanctioned exorcisms, which is leading to the death of children.
Sarah Jack: Speaking of exorcisms, whether they're sanctioned or not, if they cause harm, they're considered spiritual and ritual abuse. Sadly, we are identifying several cases in the U. S. where exorcisms have led to severe injuries and death. It's crucial to recognize that these [00:45:00] victims aren't demonic entities, but real people subjected to dangerous practices.
Sarah Jack: Spiritual and ritual abuse isn't just happening within families or homes, it's also occurring within some institutions and religious communities, leading to fatal outcomes at an increasing rate. Our goal with this project is to shed light on the frequency of these abuses and raise awareness. Tracking potential cases is enabling us to create foundational analytical data for understanding the extent and nature of these abuses in the United States. As we wrap up today's discussion on Pillai Thookkam and the broader issues of child safety within cultural rituals, we'd like to thank our guests, Naveen Suresh and Samantha Spence for their insightful contributions and for shedding light on such a complex topic. 
Josh Hutchinson: Absolutely, Sarah. It's conversations like these that remind us of the delicate balances we must maintain between honoring our traditions and protecting our future generations.
Josh Hutchinson: We hope this episode has provided you with a [00:46:00] deeper understanding of the challenges and the potential pathways toward more humane practices. 
Sarah Jack: Please continue this conversation in your communities and online. Visit our websites for links for more resources on this topic and to share your thoughts and stories with us.
Josh Hutchinson: Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.